https://youtubetotranscript.com/transcr ... Sarcrz6AKY
[00:57:30] the sermon on the Watchtower. We can go back to Ezekiel, we can go to the New Testament. We can go to Dr. DNC 1 0 1, I think the nobleman. Yep. And we, so we know that that spokesperson is gonna
[00:57:43] be challenged. And that's not something that, you know, Isaiah is just talking about. It's filled through the scriptures, you know, that there's a servant who's gonna have some challenges and some
[00:57:52] difficulties. And that was one of the things I was hoping to really clarify, um, in this podcast, is
[00:57:58] that as the world transitions and the church goes through the challenges and difficulties on that,
[00:58:05] um, there are examples in the Old Testament with like Saul, you know, and David is basically, I'm
[00:58:12] not gonna hurt the Lord's anointed. That's exactly what the servant's going to do. Right. He's not
[00:58:17] going to overcome, you know, Saul, like he's gonna follow. Exactly. He's, he's, uh, I tell people
[00:58:25] this all the time, Chris, 'cause people think that he's, he is going to follow the priesthood keys,
[00:58:33] oddly enough. He's not gonna be the one that jumps up and down, that screams at them,
[00:58:40] that goes on the wall and calls them out. Um, he's going to do it in the way that you're talking
[00:58:48] about. And those who have read Isaiah understand that. And so, uh, a way for us to identify who is
[00:58:56] not the servant is if they are being combative. Because we do know in Isaiah, I think it's 52,
[00:59:06] the, the servant and the watchmen, they see eye to eye eventually. Yeah. Even though we know that
[00:59:13] maybe he's gonna go through some challenges, I, I think he will be more of the lamb as he's dealing
[00:59:22] with these people who have keys and eventually because of how he deals with them and because of
[00:59:29] the strength of Jehovah, that they'll then see eye to eye. And, and I just see so many people
[00:59:36] out there that I'm just like, you haven't read Isaiah. Um, if you think that you're supposed to be the one that's gonna break off and do your own thing, or you are going to start something new,
[00:59:48] that's not what it says in, in fact, it's just the opposite because he's gotta work with them
[00:59:54] to see eye to eye. And I don't see any other organization out there as, as large as powerful.
[01:00:00] Zion must come by power. And in this world, power means people, money, influence, and the Church of
[01:00:07] Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints checks those boxes
ajax wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 3:28 am
creator wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 1:06 am
Why would you even want to be on this forum, if this is what you believe?
A lot of people like this around here unfortunately, almost palpable vitriol.
The Wicker Man posted his revelation about it:
https://ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.p ... n#p1090728
Michael Sherwin wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:49 am
NONE OF THE DETAILS FIT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. ALL OF THE DETAILS FIT THE LDS CHURCH PERFECTLY. Hidden in plain sight. And after it was revealed to me that JS was indwelt by Satan the Spirit had me look up his birthdate in Stellarium. And what did I find? Saturn (Satan) and Uranus (fallen angel) in Virgo (the earth). There are just way too many "coincidences" of the Spirit (that talks to me) never ever being wrong about anything (I do make mistakes though) that I have no choice but to believe what it says to me. I wanted to believe so badly. I wanted to belong so badly. But, despite what I wanted the Spirit has shown me things that I did not want nor expect. And I cannot help that because the SPIRIT HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN PROVEN TO BE WRONG. NOT ONCE!
So think again about “Zion must come by power”. ++
Code: Select all
Isaiah Servant, Watchmen & “Zion Must Come by Power” – 57:30 mark
At about the 57:30 mark the speaker lays out his model of the servant:
the sermon on the Watchtower. We can go back to Ezekiel, we can go to the New Testament. We can go to D&C 101, I think the nobleman. Yep. And we, so we know that that spokesperson is gonna be challenged. And that’s not something that, you know, Isaiah is just talking about. It’s filled through the scriptures, you know, that there’s a servant who’s gonna have some challenges and some difficulties.
So far, nothing most Isaiah-readers would argue with: the servant suffers, is challenged, walks a hard road.
Then he makes the key move:
…there are examples in the Old Testament with like Saul, you know, and David is basically, I’m not gonna hurt the Lord’s anointed. That’s exactly what the servant’s going to do. Right. He’s not going to overcome, you know, Saul, like he’s gonna follow… I tell people this all the time, Chris, ‘cause people think that he’s, he is going to follow the priesthood keys, oddly enough. He’s not gonna be the one that jumps up and down, that screams at them, that goes on the wall and calls them out.
He uses David/Saul to argue that the servant “follows the keys,” does not confront, does not “go on the wall and call them out.” The test of a false servant, in his framing, is simple:
…a way for us to identify who is not the servant is if they are being combative… if you think that you’re supposed to be the one that’s gonna break off and do your own thing, or you are going to start something new, that’s not what it says…
Then comes the line that jumped out at me:
And I don’t see any other organization out there as, as large as powerful. Zion must come by power. And in this world, power means people, money, influence, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints checks those boxes.
That’s quite a definition shift:
• Scripturally, “power” is usually tied to faith, priesthood-as-service, spiritual gifts, and God choosing “the weak things of the world to confound the mighty.”
• Here, “power” is explicitly redefined as “people, money, influence,” with the implication that the largest, wealthiest, most institutionally entrenched organization must therefore be Zion-by-definition.
You then juxtaposed that with this little snapshot of forum culture:
ajax wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 3:28 am
creator wrote: Fri Nov 14, 2025 1:06 am
Why would you even want to be on this forum, if this is what you believe?
A lot of people like this around here unfortunately, almost palpable vitriol.
“Zion must come by power” on the podcast becomes, in micro, “Why would you even want to be here?” on the forum. Same instinct: boundary-policing by social dominance. If you don’t say it our way, you must not belong in the conversation.
And then there’s The Wicker Man / Sherwin angle you linked:
“Michael Sherwin” wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:49 am
NONE OF THE DETAILS FIT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. ALL OF THE DETAILS FIT THE LDS CHURCH PERFECTLY. Hidden in plain sight. And after it was revealed to me that JS was indwelt by Satan the Spirit had me look up his birthdate in Stellarium. And what did I find? Saturn (Satan) and Uranus (fallen angel) in Virgo (the earth). There are just way too many “coincidences” of the Spirit (that talks to me) never ever being wrong about anything (I do make mistakes though) that I have no choice but to believe what it says to me. I wanted to believe so badly. I wanted to belong so badly. But, despite what I wanted the Spirit has shown me things that I did not want nor expect. And I cannot help that because the SPIRIT HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN PROVEN TO BE WRONG. NOT ONCE!
Whatever anyone thinks of his conclusions or methods, Sherwin is at least pressing the opposite direction of the podcast guest:
• The podcast: “All the details of [Zion-by-power] fit the LDS Church: people, money, influence.”
• Sherwin: “All the details of the great and abominable fit the LDS Church perfectly… hidden in plain sight.”
Same data set, same institution, two radically different reads on what “power” actually looks like to heaven.
So when somebody says with a straight face:
“Zion must come by power. And in this world, power means people, money, influence…”
it’s worth slowing down and asking:
• Is that Isaiah’s definition of power, or Babylon’s?
• In Isaiah 52, when “the servant and the watchmen see eye to eye,” is that because the servant finally bows to institutional metrics, or because the watchmen finally repent into the servant’s kind of power—meekness, suffering, lowliness, refusal to coerce?
• Does David’s refusal to slay Saul mean he never rebukes, laments, or bears witness of Saul’s misrule? (The text is full of David’s grief over what Saul became.)
The guest’s litmus test — “if they are being combative, they’re not the servant” — also gets slippery in practice:
• Jeremiah was accused of being combative, even treasonous.
• Abinadi certainly looked “combative” to Noah’s court.
• Even Christ’s woes on the Pharisees would not pass the modern “don’t call leaders out” tone test.
Scripture does warn against railing, bitterness, and self-righteous schism. But it also shows servants who speak sharp truth, at cost, to systems that have wrapped themselves in God’s name while feasting on Babylon’s kind of power.
Sherwin’s comment about “wanting to belong so badly” is actually the most sobering line to me. That longing to belong is exactly what keeps many saints locked into the “people, money, influence” definition of Zion. Leaving that metric feels like leaving safety itself.
So when we hear:
“I don’t see any other organization out there as large and powerful… and therefore this must be Zion.”
it might be healthy to remember:
• Christ consistently stands with the poor, the outcast, the “no-name” remnant.
• The great and spacious building in Lehi’s dream is also full of people, money, and influence.
• The fruit test (meekness, justice for the oppressed, honesty, refusal to cover abuse) cuts across all claims of institutional glory.
In that light, your pairing of the podcast’s “Zion must come by power” line with Wicker Man/Sherwin’s revelation about Saturn is less about picking sides and more about forcing the real question back onto the table:
What if the metric is wrong?
Because if heaven’s definition of power is not “people, money, influence,” then both the podcast guest and the “why are you even here?” gatekeepers may be building elaborate arguments on top of the wrong foundation stone.
And if the servant Isaiah saw looks more like a lamb, misunderstood, opposed, and yet faithful — then maybe the surest way to miss him is to assume in advance that he must already sit atop the biggest, richest tower in town.
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